Real Estate Underground

Harnessing Public-Private Partnerships and Relationship Capital with Marcus Thomas

• Ed Mathews • Season 4 • Episode 136

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Marcus Thomas from Christopher Alexander Holdings joins us to unravel the complexities of real estate development with a special spotlight on public-private partnerships and workforce housing. Delve into the nuances between affordable housing and workforce housing, and discover how understanding area median income can transform development strategies. From tracing the roots of housing issues to policies from the late 60s to exploring how small municipalities can become pivotal players in community growth, Marcus shares his wealth of experience and knowledge.

Unlock the secrets to maximizing real estate investment opportunities by exploring the financial perks of opportunity zone projects, including the potential for significant tax savings on capital gains. Navigate the challenges of rising insurance premiums due to severe weather, and learn how relationship capital often trumps financial capital in this industry. Marcus explains how forming strategic partnerships with municipalities can open doors to funding opportunities and reveals how building genuine connections can be a game-changer in real estate development.

Relationships, both personal and professional, are at the heart of success, and Marcus emphasizes their importance, particularly in the public sector. Authenticity is key — learn the risks of coming across as inauthentic and the immense value of mentors who provide guidance and intentionality. As we conclude, Marcus offers his insights for free through his newsletter "MUD" on scubseack.com, providing a treasure trove of knowledge for both seasoned professionals and those new to the field. Join us in expressing gratitude to Marcus for sharing his journey and expertise, and look forward to more lessons in building and investing in the future.

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Ed Mathews:

Greetings and salutations. Real Estate Undergrounders. It is Ed Mathews with the Real Estate Underground. Thank you so much for joining us today. I really appreciate all the feedback you've given us. It really helps guide us in terms of the asset classes and the types of people that we invite onto the show. And today actually is a show that is a little bit selfish in terms of the topic, because, as if you've been listening to the show regularly Clark Street is getting into the development business, and so what better way to learn about that than to call in an expert, and so we've done just that. So, marcus Thomas with Christopher Alexander Holdings, welcome to the show. Billy's in the house.

Marcus Thomas:

Thank you for having me.

Ed Mathews:

I think you probably need a big hug because your Sixers are awful and I am a Celtics fan. Full disclosure, but in a good year.

Marcus Thomas:

Lucky for you, lucky for you. I'm a LeBron fan, so it's all good.

Ed Mathews:

All right, that explains your Instagram handle, then. All right, all right, so hey, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today, and so, for those folks who haven't discovered you yet, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do?

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, my name's Marcus Thomas, First and foremost, ed, thank you for having me on your show. Yes, I'm a real estate developer. Pretty much my niche is working in the public-private partnership sector, which we can elaborate a little bit more on for folks that just want to understand what that means, and pretty much my goal is to work in transitional neighborhoods and make them more transformative than what they are currently in the space, and we do anything which is by far one of our more staple projects, simply because it's a meaningful project, and so you'll probably learn more about me today that a lot of the projects that we take on are very meaningful projects. We just don't take on any project. We'll take on projects that really have more than value-add component piece to it, and I've started from very humble beginnings. I think a lot of times we get into the space by pure accident, not the fact that we wake up and we want to do it. Appreciate you again for having me on your show.

Ed Mathews:

Thanks. Yeah, I don't think you wake up and go. I want to be a developer, delay revenue for two years while I fight the battles with my backyard people and then the government, and then all the red tape, and then it takes a bazillion years to actually build the properties and it's awesome.

Marcus Thomas:

But yeah, your shoe has got to be a little bit loose to be in this business. Can't be all the way there.

Ed Mathews:

And one of the things that we're focused on and I think I know where you're going, so I'm excited to talk about this is affordable housing right and in terms of state of Connecticut, for instance, where I'm based, there's about 30,000 units that we're behind where we need to be in. I think it's 2030. And that is a direct result of the financial crisis, wiping out a whole class of developers and real estate or, I'm sorry, general contractors, and what's happened is and knowing Philly a little bit, I suspect this is true in your part of the world as well there's limited inventory and the inventory that's there, the demand curve has really messed with the supply curve, that has messed with pricing and everything is super expensive because there's just nothing out there to buy or to rent. So I'm curious what your thoughts are.

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, you are hitting the nail right on the head. We can actually take it a few chapters back, understanding where a ton of this is stemming from. Right. A ton of this is actually stemming from, probably during the late 60s, right, during certain administration that came in and really started creating policies that divide the metropolitan areas and creating an I-95 that allow folks to move out to certain submarkets. It just was dismantling of your inner cities, which now you'll see the residual effects of that. Right, the businesses were losing revenue and unfortunately that turned into another domino effect and ultimately where we are today within those smaller metropolitan cities or even cities, inner cities.

Marcus Thomas:

A lot of that is stemming from that and I just want to be clear most folks classify affordable housing and workforce housing as the same thing and they're two different things, right. A lot of times people are like oh, you're working in the affordable housing arena. Technically, we're not. We are working more in the workforce housing side of things, which is really geared towards area of immediate income and allows me as a developer to have a little bit more flexibility on how I build versus when you start doing affordable housing. But it becomes very tight of some of the things that you cannot do when you're building.

Marcus Thomas:

Right so let's talk about the public-private partnership. Yeah, so in a nutshell, what does that mean? Public-private partnerships is the opportunity to partner with government entities, to create synergy, and one layer down from that is we particularly work with your smaller municipality governments and we come in and we assist them with challenges that they are facing when it relates to housing, and within that transaction or in that partnership, we come up with amicable terms that not only help the city grow, help certain government agencies grow, but also help us grow and, more importantly, help the community grow too.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, and so let's talk specifics. So you go into the mayor's office in Wilmington, delaware, and what problem are they trying to solve and what solutions are you bringing to the table?

Marcus Thomas:

What problem are they trying to solve and what solutions are you bringing to the table? I wish it was just that easy. It's one of those things where and one of my examples is when I first started I actually had to reach out to a few hundred different political figures just by it's public record phone calls, emails. Going through those and then you finally get in front of a constituent of certain districts that really need help with their housing problem. And then that's how the conversation goes further and further, and so how to answer your question about solving their problem.

Marcus Thomas:

The way that you can easily figure that out is every city has a comprehensive plan. They have to create that and you get a chance to see what the city is trying to focus on for the next five to 10 years. And so if you're a very savvy developer or investor probably as many of your folks and listeners are if you dive through those pages, it actually gives you one hand up. You get a chance to see where you can really put your thoughts and visuals as a developer on certain areas to help build that community out. And so that's exactly what I did. I looked at some of the comprehensive plans, figured out where were some transitional neighborhoods that really were struggling and really came up with a vision and an idea of how we can win both together.

Ed Mathews:

So you discover a neighborhood in ABC City, right? Mm-hmm. So you discover a neighborhood in ABC City, right? You find a council person or a assistant to the mayor or someone whose this problem is part of their portfolio, right? And so what's the approach? I know a lot of it is dial in for for nose, right, because it's just the nature of the business. But when you finally get somebody on the phone, what is the key message you're trying to get across?

Marcus Thomas:

Ultimately, hey, listen, the message that I try to tell folks is you have some challenges, I have a result. Okay, all right. And when they say I'm listening, I'll say, hey, let's meet in person or let's hop on a call for 30 minutes. And in that conversation I really get into the nitty gritty of what's the main issue and here's how we can focus on it and here's, more importantly, how we can create revenue and capital to bring something back online, and I think that's the bottom line something back online and I think that's the bottom line.

Ed Mathews:

So you are looking for unused land.

Marcus Thomas:

You're looking for vacant buildings. What's your target I'm really looking for now, and for me it's making sure that if we are going to do some type of infill, that it actually has the entitlements necessary already to move forward. I think a lot of times people just want to buy land and really don't understand buying just a piece of land. If you don't know what you're doing, it's going to cost a ton of capital even before you get to the point of getting your variances, and so I try to see if there's utilities already in the ground and if not, that's where you have those conversations with building out that relationship through that public-private partnership of trying to get dollars to be offset to help make things more feasible right, so let's talk about that.

Ed Mathews:

The offset Is that tax credits. Is it grants? Is it something else?

Marcus Thomas:

In your cap stack, you can do those things right. Tax credits are a great thing, like new markets tax credits, low-income housing tax credits but one of the things that people don't really know about is in smaller cities, there are rebates that are put in place that are actually there for the use for developers like myself. So, for example, you have gold green initiatives from this current administration that has put into place right. If you understand how opportunity zones work, you can use that to your advantage as well as you're building out your strategy and for your exit on a plan. And then there's also there are other incentives to help build out your project. So there's construction soft loans that can be given to you from your city to help build out your capital stack for your sources and uses.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, All right. So you mentioned Opportunity Zone. You look at the portfolio of projects that you've worked on over the years. Is that mostly where you live these days or is that just? It depends on the project and they're sprinkled across the $500 or so million in assets that you guys have under management right now.

Marcus Thomas:

A little bit of both. I typically like to just stay within underserved communities, just because that's the mission and so, luckily for us, most of those communities already have the opportunity zones put into place. All right, all right. It's not like it's my main focus. Make to make the long story short, yeah.

Ed Mathews:

It just has to be where you're hunting for deals.

Marcus Thomas:

Correct.

Ed Mathews:

So it sounds like a lot of the projects are opportunity projects. For those of you folks that don't invest in opportunity zone projects, there are tremendous tax savings in terms of actually I'm going to let you explain it because I'm not the expert here- you said it the best it's pretty much it allows you to hold with your capital gains.

Marcus Thomas:

more so about capital gains, right, you're holding the asset for under a decade or about a decade. You won't have to pay capital gain taxes on it once you sell the asset. And don't get me wrong, I'm not an accountant. You probably want to speak to an accountant about that. But in a nutshell, that's pretty much one of the great pleasures of working in Z places.

Ed Mathews:

So you buy a piece of land, you buy a vacant building already located in an opportunity zone. It's a value add opportunity. So there's already equity as you start to rehab the rehab or develop that property. Once you stabilize the property and start throwing off cash. Now it's an NOI game of management. And so you are slowly but surely, over the course of eight, nine, 10 years, developing the financial model and growing the revenue of that building as expenses crawl up 3% every year, 4% every year. At the end of 10 years you have a pretty valuable asset. And again, caveat, talk to your tax attorney, talk to your CPA. But there are tremendous opportunities to avoid some or all of your capital gains for that project, which is potentially a home run when it comes to wealth growth, right.

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, I agree with you, and there's going to be anomalies that are going to take place. Anyhow, I would tell most people just make sure, as you're looking at your pro forma for whether it's once you're stabilized, really don't be so conservative right In your approach. I understand the cash flow game, but you really want to make sure that you're increasing your expenses at a number that you're just like that. That hurts to put it to that number, but I rather have it there, because you just never know what could take place over the course of not only a year but a decade.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and if you what Marcus is telling you, take a look at your most recent commercial real estate or commercial insurance bills and compare them to last year's bills and the year before that and you'll see very quickly that managing your financial projections against a near worst case scenario is probably pretty prudent.

Marcus Thomas:

I was having this conversation with a buddy of mine and we were just talking about this not too long ago. We were just talking about how the whole concept of insurance is out of this world. There's again to the point now where the premiums are overexceeding what you typically would see in a builder's risk policy or if you're even doing construction, and now what's happening is when you're at the end of the insurance plan, they're not even renewing you. They're going to say, unfortunately we're not moving forward, which is trying to and maybe you can elaborate on this, or maybe someone can send me an email and just explain this to me. But it's just one of those things where I'm like why are the insurance companies doing this now?

Ed Mathews:

That's just a side note, I'm sorry. I had a conversation with a large insurance professional broker down in the Southeast probably about a year ago. He told me this was coming, and it was more than a year. A lot of it has to do with the cataclysmic weather that's been hitting the Southeast and so they're basically trying to wash that risk across their entire client base instead of just making folks in Florida and Georgia and the Carolinas and elsewhere pay the freight.

Ed Mathews:

That's a lot of what's happened okay, that's interesting okay and that said, it's been I don't know 10 years since a major hurricane hit connecticut and I don't know the last time one actually hung a left and hit philly head on yeah, interesting reserves. But who knows, I'm only 55. In terms of the partnership, I want to get back into that. So you are sitting with the municipalities, some of these municipalities did I hear you right that they'll also? There are loan programs in some cases for the developers.

Marcus Thomas:

I would say each state has a housing authority, that they have certain programs that are put out there to assist the developer. Now, if you're anything like me, when you read some of that stuff it can come off very hieroglyphic and then, once you finish reading a page or two, you get a little bit butthurt and you don't necessarily take advantage of that. And so what I learned is it's okay to spend a few dollars with experts that know how to get those grants for you. Yes, right, because those dollars are there and they have to be used. So why not that money be used for you?

Ed Mathews:

Right and your project.

Marcus Thomas:

And so those experts are they focused on? They know where to hunt, or is it more? Is it also about compressing timelines, what you're trying to do, and they'll help you put that application together and get it submitted, and so there are agencies out there that will do similar work when it relates to finding programs that are geared towards funding for mom and pop, smaller, mid-sized developers.

Ed Mathews:

Sure, yeah, connecticut has CHAPA. That's exactly what they do for a living, I assume. Delaware, philly, jersey, they all have the same. So one of the things that I read in your bio that I was interested about is you make a point of talking about your belief around relationship capital outweighing financial capital. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, relationship capital is way more important than fiat capital, simply because relationships took me a long time, ed. It took me a long time to really understand what relationships really meant. I remember as a young person and I'm still relatively young, but I remember when folks would tell me, hey, you need new friends, you need to build better relationships. And in my head I'm like dude. I thought this stuff is organic right, and the reality is it is organic right. Organic right and the reality is it is organic right.

Marcus Thomas:

But there are relationships, in a nutshell, are so crucial and so vital for especially for me being in, like the public sector of things that will allow doors to be open, conversations of people that you might not have met, not met, if you didn't have that relationship. Even when it comes to when it comes to your civic association meetings or entitlement processes. Relationships can help, can make you sleep a bit better at night when you're doing certain projects versus just having regular fiat. It can help, but it might not move the needle faster if you don't have the right relationships in place.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, yeah, no, I hear you. It's like my youngest is looking at colleges right now. I think I've talked about that before we hit the record button and one of the questions that she had asked was why do I want to go to college? And I said obviously there's the educational aspect of it.

Ed Mathews:

One of the things you need to pay attention to is the network, because I have I've been out of school for I don't know 30 some odd years, and I don't recall the last time somebody asked me what my GPA is, but the fact that I went to a certain school and the person that I'm calling on went to the same school. That person tends to return your phone call right, yeah, as you build, and obviously you've got to perform when they pick up that phone. But when you build a relationship with a mayor or a mayor's deputy or someone in housing or wherever, and you come through for them and solve problems for them, not only will they pick up the phone and call you or pick up the phone when you call them, but when they have a problem, they'll call you to help, to see if you can solve the problem and other doors open, other opportunities come your way, which is something that most people don't think about.

Marcus Thomas:

Listen who said it? It was a Henry Kissinger. I think he said this the best he said. Said it it was a henry kessinger. I think he said this the best he said. America has no permanent friends, no permanent enemies, just permanent interest. And so if you know that you think like that in the front of your mind with these conversations that take place, it's all about having a similar interest of what's important here and even to your point, respectfully, anyone that has gone to Harvard kudos to you of not bashing it. But ultimately, the reason for why folks will go to Harvard is because the same graduating class, those are the folks that will build the relationships, that will do deals or make things happen, to have cash be flown to another business, et cetera. And then you have you have your private clubs, you have your. Those are all gear for the like-mindedness of folks that understand the importance for why you are part of that group joining your yacht clubs or your golf clubs or Yep.

Ed Mathews:

About meeting the chairman of yada yada yada and standing next to him at some event and meeting him and striking up a relationship and becoming friends and at some point when there's a rapport and, ultimately, trust it represents itself Sometimes, sometimes not Sometimes. You just.

Marcus Thomas:

And that's okay. And so that's another learned lesson Don't rush it, like you come off. If you try to meet someone very quickly, it just comes off very often unauthentic and it's not going to get you anywhere. Authenticity goes hand in hand with building good relationships.

Ed Mathews:

Like the old social media story. I can't remember who told me the story, but social media is very similar in that respect. Right, you want to be the person that is interesting and ads it's friendly and and, but you don't want to be the guy at on social media or at the dinner party. If you go in and you're interesting and people are talking with you and you're talking with them and learning more about them, those are the people that other people engage with. They're the ones that you avoid. Like the plague on social media and at dinner parties is somebody walks in and goes hi want to buy something from me.

Marcus Thomas:

Absolutely.

Ed Mathews:

Don't know you. So goodbye, marcus. One of the things that I like to do with all of our guests is a is a lightning round. I call it the final five. I knew I'd made it when I cause I was calling it the final four for the first couple of years of our show and I actually got a letter from those folks that actually own that trademark and knock it off, and I said, yes, sir, I did that. I'm always interested in what gets folks leaders like you out of bed on Monday morning. So finish the sentence. For me, my purpose is to put a debt in this planet. Love that, love that. One of the benefits of relationships and relationship capital is you tend to find mentors and people that see something in you for one reason or another and they want to help, and they really don't want anything back from you other than to see you succeed and to ultimately pay it forward. So I'm curious about your mentors specifically. What's the best advice you've ever gotten and who gave it to you?

Marcus Thomas:

Well, quite a few. The top three that come to mind is if it's for you, it's for you. You got to learn how to lead sheep without sheep knowing that they're being led. That one was crucial for me Be the thermostat, not the thermometer. They always hit me with these crazy parables that I sit back and I'm like what in the world are you talking about Right? And then, years down the line, it's just a eureka epiphany moment of okay, I get what you're saying.

Ed Mathews:

Not the person who's following along. Right Be the one, yeah.

Marcus Thomas:

And for just privacy for those individuals. I won't say their names, but those were. Those are the top ones that come to mind. Lead with intentionality. Everything else will find its way. But the most important one is if it's for you, it's for you, and in the development process you're going to see some things. You're going to be tested in ways that, if you think that it's the internet, will find ways to make it look sexy.

Marcus Thomas:

But, like I said earlier in the beginning of our chat, I said, your screw's got to to be a little loose for this, because you're going to be pulled in so many different directions, not even on the business side. I would say this and I don't want to take away from what you were saying for your family and friends and associates and peers, before you start a project, I would be very clear with them on what the next two, three, four years might look like. Right, and really telling them and leaning into them and saying, hey, this is what I'm going to need from you. There are going to be times where I don't have the mental wherewithal, and so you can just check up on me or just understand that I'm just in a season that has nothing to do with you and I would just use that as an example. But I would have that conversation with everyone around you, because you will go up and down like a seesaw or depending on how big the project is.

Ed Mathews:

It's turns out. It's really hard, it's really stressful, as many people pulling on you as are pushing for you and it's. I'm learning that. I've learned that quickly.

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, you'll see your bank account, but one day you'll see your bank account come in and well, you've never seen that type of cash before. And then the next day it's gone and you're just like, oh man, what? So it's okay, bree, right, it's all part of the cycle of building this real estate project and, honestly, it's like having a child, right, like you got to feed the child, you got to nurture the child, you have to give it your attention, and it's saying similar. I don't want to use that one as the best metaphor, but it's very similar.

Ed Mathews:

So every once in a while that child's going to throw it. It's that right.

Marcus Thomas:

For sure.

Ed Mathews:

Hey, let's talk about tantrums. I think you learn as much or more from mistakes than from successes, and so I'm curious about a mistake professionally obviously that you've made over the years, and what's something that you'd like to have back and how'd you recover from it, like a decision or something?

Marcus Thomas:

I don't know if I want it back, but, man, that's a good question. So many that come to mind. The first one that comes to mind is anyone that you're going to do business with, especially if you're going to do business with family, or if you're going to do business with, let's just say, you have a good friend that's a contractor, or you have a good friend that's a vendor of some sort, some sort. Make sure you have a very crystal clear scope of work and make sure you really go through those things Respectfully. I could care less. If someone is a good friend of mine and says they want to do work, sure, here's the contract. Let's go through it together. Let's make sure that we're on the same page with it. I want to make sure that you're happy and I'm happy too, but don't get into projects that you haven't really designed a very detailed scope of work of what the expectation is on your projects. I see too many people do that and it never works out in their favor.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, well, we'll figure it out. No, you won't. Yeah, the part you don't think through in granular detail, that's what's going to bite you All. Right, great answer. With regard to sharpening the proverbial saw, I'm always interested in what leaders are reading or creators are paying attention to, so I'm curious about a couple of things. One is how do you take in information? Are you an audio book person, physical books, youtube videos, whatever, and who are you paying attention to right now?

Marcus Thomas:

I'm definitely an audible kind of guy. That's how I'll take in information, but I'm actually a person that actually just has to do the work right. Like I have to do it. I have to fail forward, because to me failure is like a keloid on the body and so you'll never forget it. It'll stick to you. Excuse me, that's usually how I'll learn the best. Right now I'm reading a ton of books on just like service, not even looking at real estate but hospitality to me is a big thing in this industry, Like we're a semi vertically integrated company, right. So they actually we have the construction side and we also have the asset management, property management side of things, and so on both sides of that there's a sense of hospitality, and I read it. The best services black and white, but hospitality is in color, and right now I'm reading a book all just on the hospitality industry and why it's so important in your business to really make sure you make people feel an experience that they'll never forget.

Ed Mathews:

So what's the name of the book?

Marcus Thomas:

Unreasonable Hospitality by Will Gadara. And if, will, if you're listening to this show, my man, please shoot me an email. I would love nothing but to sit down and chat with you for 10 minutes if you had the opportunity. Because, ed, if you read this book, I promise you you're going to be like wow, especially the story behind and what he was able to do in the restaurant industry. If you ever watched the show the Bear I think he's the producer of it, but I believe a part of what he's talking about on the show is what he had to deal with with one of the largest restaurants in New York City.

Ed Mathews:

Check it out.

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah.

Ed Mathews:

It'll be on my list. One of the cool things about having this show is that it basically creates my reading list. It may take me six months to get to it, but I'll get to it. Yeah, so last question of the lightning round, please fill in the blank. Success means.

Marcus Thomas:

Success means being able to lay my head down at night on the pillow and have a smile. That's what success looks like for me, and that might sound so corny, but I put it out there every single day. And success sometimes doesn't necessarily have to be God, or doesn't have to be accolades or awards. It could just be doing one thing a little different than you did the day before and you accomplish something. And it's still a better feeling for me to be around my family as well. So that's success all in itself.

Ed Mathews:

Recording this the week before Thanksgiving, so it's good to be here, All right, man. Hey, what do you like to do?

Marcus Thomas:

Say that last thing again Our real estate. What do you like to do? Say that last thing again.

Ed Mathews:

Our real estate. What do you like to do?

Marcus Thomas:

I'm a big time fitness kind of person. I love doing a little bit of some working out. I did the 100 mile bike and that was fun, so I try to be as adventurous as possible outdoors. If I'm not doing real estate, I definitely love spending my time with family. That's one of my main drivers that fills up my tank.

Ed Mathews:

So It'll warm the soul, all right. And so, marcus, I've really enjoyed this conversation. You built an amazing business Congratulations, and I appreciate you giving us a little bit of time. I know you're busy today. If people want to get in touch with you or learn more about you or your business, what's the best way to get in touch?

Marcus Thomas:

Yeah, so you can. Our website is C, as in Charlie A, as in Apple H, as in Henry B, as in boy M, as in Marycom, so that's C-A-H-B-Mcom. You can also find me on LinkedIn, and that's Marcus T10. I'm also on Instagram at IamKing, underscore 10. And for your subscribers and for your listeners, I'm going to do an additional thing, which is I've been writing weekly about the development process and things that most people don't know about in the development, and or they're paying for it, and I'm giving away absolutely free, all right. And so it's a new platform, it's dot com, so that's s-c-u-b-s-e-a-c-k. Dot com, and just type in marcus c thomas. The newsletter is called mud m-u-d, and each you'll get a notification from me about something that I'm writing that's going to probably hopefully help someone that's trying to either been seasoned in the game or a new person, and give them some type of tangibles.

Ed Mathews:

Wow, that's really fantastic and incredibly generous. Thank you, my pleasure. Well, I certainly will be signing up for that, because I have a lot to learn. Marcus, it's a pleasure to meet you. Congratulations on all your success and continued good fortune.

Marcus Thomas:

Thanks, ed. It was such a pleasure, Great conversation. Thank you for having me.

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