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Crafting Wealth Preservation in Southern California Real Estate with Zihao Wang

• Ed Mathews

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Ed Mathews:

Greetings and salutations Real Estate Undergrounders. It is Ed Mathews with the Real Estate Underground. Thank you so much for joining us today. Today we have a gentleman from Motiva Holdings, Zihao Wang. Zihao, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for making time. I know you're a busy person, so I'm grateful. It's nice to see you.

Zihao Wang:

Thank you so much for having me, Ed. Happy to be here.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah. So we discovered you probably in our own investing circles in terms of looking for general partners to work with, because we are a GP as well, but obviously, when we've got some extra capital, I like to work with established operators, and you've built one heck of a business, so congratulations on that. For those folks that haven't discovered you, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do for a living, and then we'll get into it?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, so I'm CEO of Motiva Holdings. We're a second gen family office. It's the real estate division of our family office. We focus primarily on multifamily investing. It was started by my parents back in the early 2000s and, as second gen, I took over back in 2016. Back in the early 2000s and as second gen, I took over back in 2016. We do nationwide multifamily investing, primarily focusing on value- add projects, but have done some ground up here and there to give color. It's like we've done 37 projects in total so far. Four of them have been ground ups and the rest have all been in value- add space and we've had six exits so far. The rest have all been in value-add space and we've had six exits so far. So, yeah, primarily just doing a lot of multifamily value-add investing and most of our funds we come from the family. Rarely do we go out and mass syndicate we sometimes bring on other family offices or more like bigger private equity groups. So yeah, more targeting towards slightly more institutional partners than the match.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, which is also what your team gave us on. The feedback is we're not institutional, so we're not big enough, and that's fine. So, in terms of the types of projects, I'd like to get into that a little bit. When you say value add, are you talking C class, B class? What is your buy box?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, it's typically B to C class. So I like to target between the kind of the 60s to the 90s buildings, depending on location. For example, we have two thirds of our portfolio is in Southern California. Here we like to target the 60s 70s, just because of the amount of product there is right. So you won't see a lot of like kind of the 80s 90s product in SoCal. It's either like more towards the 60s or more into the 2000s and newer. So because of that we've done a lot of kind of deeper value adds here, targeting kind of 60s construction, 70s construction, heavy lifts, light lifts, depends on the assets. Some owners have kept up with their assets really well. Lighter lift for us, but also less meat on the bone. Other owners have held the property for 50 plus years and it has generations and it's a rundown asset and it's a heavier lift, more risk obviously, but also more returns.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, so you mentioned Southern California. I'm here in the Northeast, I'm based in Connecticut and, I think, the New York. There are parallels between the New York markets, the Boston markets and Southern California, probably closer to New York and LA, and so I'm curious about the type. When we talk about a buy box, obviously a lot of it has to do with appreciation, forcing appreciation rather than cashflow, given the, frankly, the compressed cap rates in both those cities.

Zihao Wang:

Right, yeah, a lot of it's, I would say, depending on where you buy, specifically in Southern California, then that like drastically differs, right? Yeah, a lot of it's, I would say, depending on where you buy specifically in Southern California, then that like drastically differs, right? So if you buy like in the best area of like Beverly Hills, then yeah, it's like probably like a 3% cap rate. You're probably not going to get much cash flow is basically all appreciation. But where we focus on is a little bit more towards what I would call the secondary market of SoCal, which, to be honest, isn't really secondary at all. It's just, you know, compared with Beverly Hills it's a little bit inferior. So those areas I can still get decent cap rates actually. For example, we're closing a deal right now and that's going to close at the end of January. It's going in five and a half cap rate, which is actually it is a 70s product. So it's in line with what you would see like in Dallas for like maybe a 70s to 80s product.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, All right, yeah, that's a doable deal, depending on your cost of capital, right? So let's talk about your capital stack. What does that look like?

Zihao Wang:

Typically we put 65% loan to value or loan to cost, depending on the business plan of debt, and then the remaining comes from equity. So on the business plan of debt and then the remaining comes from equity. So we don't over lever. As a family office we're very driven by preservation of wealth and kind of growing steadily, so we never really go above that kind of 65% threshold. Occasionally we may go a little bit higher if that's cheap, but then we would fill it up with equity because we have that kind of liquidity. So yeah, 65-35 typically.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, and so, as interest rates for those folks out there that are trying to do the math in their head is, as interest rates have climbed over the last, say, 24 months, how has that affected your business model?

Zihao Wang:

I think it's made acquisitions a lot harder. It's also made existing portfolios of operations tougher for those that were on bridge debt. Very luckily, most of our portfolio was refinanced during when the interest rates were super low and they were at fixed, so we didn't really get that ramp up kind of pressure. But we also had some projects on floating debt right. Ground up development was on floating debt. A deep value add was also on floating debt and I think what helped us really is that low leverage right. So we were at 65% on floating debt. That won't kill us. I think most syndicators who were maybe playing in more of the Texas markets they were more at like the 80% leverage on floating debt that really harmed them in terms of payments. Percent leverage on floating debt that really farmed them in terms of payments and we always try to be as local as possible and move as fast as possible. I think that really helped us in terms of boosting NOI and making sure we can debt cover.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and so when you buy let's talk about that five and a half cap that you're working to right now what is the target cap rate? Once you have gone in, applied your management capabilities, done any rehab that needs to happen? What does it look like stabilized?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, so typically over a five-year period we try to aim to around a seven and a half return on cost, so it's not a seven and a half cap rate. Cap rate is actually going to be higher. We also bounce in all the costs right Because we spent the equity to improve the building. So the business strategy is typically buy at a five and a half cap, push it to a seven and a half return on costs, which probably closer to an eight or mid eight like cap rate, and then get it back down when we sell to around a five and a half as well. We're not doing cap rate compression, we're either doing neutral or sometimes even just a tiny bit of expansion. We can't do too much expansion because SoCal market's really hot, so it's a lot of 1031 buyers here and just too much expansion doesn't make sense. But we try to go neutral at least.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, and so when you're looking at an exit, yeah, obviously a family office operates very differently from private equity firms like mine and where exits are really important in terms of returning capital to the investors. Tell me about your thinking around how you exit 37 properties. I think you said you've exited from six, if I got that right. Yes, so tell me about your thinking in terms of how it's different in a family office environment when you're thinking about moving on from a building and either trading up or doing something else with the capital. Sure, yeah.

Zihao Wang:

so I think this. I'm going to generalize the thinking here, but I think this depends on each family as well, Like we have connections with families who completely different from another family. But I think the general rule of thumb for family offices is we have patient capital, which means if we don't feel the need to sell, we won't sell because we're not a fund. We don't have to close. We don't earn our money on a disposition fee, so it's really not that important for us. You know we've really taken it as a market approach, right. So if maybe five years from now, let's say you know COVID 2.0, well, God forbid, but let's say that happens, right. Then you know interest rates go down to zero. Then you know for us maybe we'll refire into a loan that's 50 years or 30 years, right, and then just keep on holding the asset, right. But then maybe along the way it's okay. Maybe interest rates over there are high five years later and there's a buyer in a 1031 exchange who really likes this asset and they're willing to pay what we want them to pay, then we're not in the position to say we're going to hold on to something forever either. So I would say we have that flexibility.

Zihao Wang:

So we have assets that we've held on to for 16 years Like this. It was the first assets that my parents bought. They have no equity in it. It's a kind of cash flowing asset, really good basis, I think it was. I think it's 130 a door in Pasadena. So that's insane. 16 years ago back in Kuwait.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, so let me stop you right there just for a second. Just as per comparison, what's a per door roughly a per door cost today?

Zihao Wang:

Or something for the kind of same turned asset. It'd probably be closer to 430, 430 a door.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, we've held on to that thing for 16 years.

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, it's basically I haven't asked it in California for like kind of Dallas basis right now. So, yeah, so something like that we probably won't sell, Even if it, like worst case happens, we have no equity in it either. But then we've also sold assets within three years, right. So, like some other projects that we were more in like a flip and a fix and, uh, you know, you bought and and discovered some things about the property that weren't in alignment with your business model, or something in between.

Zihao Wang:

It's typically what we underwrite to like. For us, we always underwrite to a five-year exit because I feel that's that. That keeps the math as simplest right. A lot of people like to do a three-year refi and then a five-year exit or 10-year hold or something like that. I just feel like if the deal pencils with a five-year exit, then I can do a five-year refi and things shouldn't go that bad as well. So I always try to keep it as simple as possible.

Ed Mathews:

Simple is good. I was interviewing a gentleman last week His name is Christian Osgood and I asked him about advice that he's been given and he said don't add steps. And for an entrepreneur, keeping it simple is very difficult, especially you. If I'm not mistaken, you went to MIT, which means you're really smart and the inclination of an entrepreneur, especially a creative, and I don't know where you fall on the spectrum in terms of operator versus creator, but a creative, but the creatives tend to like complexity yeah, keeping it simple today is very difficult for some people, and myself included, and uh it's, um it's.

Ed Mathews:

But your point is well taken in that if a deal will write, if a deal will pencil at a five-year term, then that provides you with a whole lot of flexibility as you go along, right In terms of you can then date the rate that you have it on and at year three, four, five, you can make that decision in terms of do we keep this or do we refinance it? Take our equity out, our initial equity out, and just ride the market, like your parents did with that Pasadena property. By the way, congratulations, because when you told me that per door, I know a whole bunch of Southern California investors. They're buying at $400,000, $500,000, $600,000 a door. So kudos. So in terms of the cost of capital, right, and actually let me take a step back. So in terms of the form of capital, are you mostly in agency debt or are you working with local banks or some other capital source?

Zihao Wang:

We primarily like to work with local banks, and that's primarily because my parents are still running their fashion business. That's how they first made their money and so they have a lot of deposits with these banks. We get insane rates and don't have to really worry about the deposit issues. To put that in perspective, the one that we're closing the escrow on right now, I shopped the debt with Fannie and Freddie. They were closer to six and a half. The six and three quarters and some other kind of debt funds are crazy with the rates, so I didn't even go to them.

Zihao Wang:

But our bank was able to do six and a quarter with two years interest only and then also no prepay. That's also important for us to have the flexibility and then a quarter of a point for loan fee. So I just think with all the metrics together, we do very well with the banks. Now, with that said, it is on recourse, right, so it's not a non-recourse loan, and there are like ceilings to the banks, right. They don't let you lend forever. So those are also considerations that we keep in mind as well.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and that's an interesting point, because, recourse versus non-recourse, you're going to pay what? Anywhere between half the point, a full point more for non-recourse, right? Yeah yeah, and so you're comfortable with recourse loans. And I assume that's because at this point, from a liquidity perspective, it doesn't much matter what the economy does. You probably have the capital, the reserves to withstand that.

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, I mean in terms of recourse and non-recourse, it depends on how we get the rest of the equity as well. So, for example, some deals we just were the only equity on that deal, so it's the same right Recourse, non-recourse. If we bring in other caps, some of the private equity groups won't even let you do recourse right, so they want to make sure it's non-recourse. And then for us it's a super small deal. It's only a four and a quarter million dollars and the loan is 3 million with reserve funding, and so from that perspective it's do I feel comfortable that this asset is going to go down to $3 million? Like, probably, I probably won't get there.

Ed Mathews:

Relative to your, it's a fraction of a percentage points. It's measured risk. I get it. Okay, that makes a lot of sense. And then so you write to one of the one of the other things that you said which I I wholeheartedly buy into and I want, especially for the folks that are doing deals now.

Ed Mathews:

Right, typically here, when I'm investing, I'm looking for a two point spread between cap, acquisition cap and cost of capital. But there is a, there's a. There's a point where I'll deviate from that, and that is when we're knowingly going in, knowing that from a we've got additional reserves in place, that we tend to hold six months minimum operating reserves, but know that the play is more from an appreciation perspective rather than from a cash flow perspective. We tend to be more cash flow players, which is why I'm looking for that spread. So I'm curious in terms of your thinking here. It seems to me that this is more of a. There's certainly a growth aspect to your model, but it and I think you even said this earlier that it's more of a capital preservation. You want to stay. You know a couple of points maybe double up inflation and stay ahead of that curve, right?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah. So I think where you're getting at is like why I chose kind of appreciation versus like. Maybe your method of like cash flow Right and I don't. It's not like I favor one strategy over the other, I don't. I just so happen to my parents. We were local to Southern California and so we got started here in an appreciation market.

Zihao Wang:

If we got started in, you know, maybe the Midwest and, for example, oklahoma, then maybe it's a totally different story. I'd be totally doing something else right now. I understand both sides of the story. It's for cash flow investors. They're thinking I don't have to bang on an exit, right, it's like I get good cash flow. It's you know the returns are steady.

Zihao Wang:

I completely agree with that strategy. But I also see my side of the story as well. Whereas you're typically buying in better locations, a little bit safer locations and with bigger economies, and so that from a wealth preservation point of view it also makes a lot of sense, my goal is not to pick right, my goal is to dabble into a little bit of everything. So we're not there yet because we're not big enough. But I wouldn't, I'd say, if I had unlimited amounts of capital and unlimited amounts of like human capital and all of that and a huge team. I'd love to open offices in like Oklahoma and in the middle, like in the Midwest and in other areas, so to get that kind of both sides of the spectrum and for diversification right. So love that strategy as well. I don't really have a preference.

Ed Mathews:

I would say I'm a big proponent of using a baseball analogy hitting singles and doubles right, I'm not a home run hitter and there are multiple ways, and what that means in my mind is we want a deal that is predictable. We can get it stable fairly quickly and then have the opportunity to manage that and hold that property for, like you, minimum five years sometimes a whole lot longer and then, as we progress through the business plan, make some decisions in terms of refinancing and whatnot, and you can get there from an appreciation perspective. You can also get there from a cashflow perspective. It's usually a combination of the two. Me here in Connecticut, this is very much a cashflow market and so, like you, I invest in my backyard and so that's where you usually start. And then you look up and you have several hundred units and you're like, okay, I guess I'm a Southern California investor.

Zihao Wang:

We are trying to diversify into other states for sure. So two-thirds of it is in SoCal. We've also had some in Florida and North Carolina, and then we're trying to get into Texas, and then I think there's definitely a diversification piece of mind that I'm well aware of and, yeah, we'll see where it goes.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, so when you're looking at other markets I'm going to move on to the final five in a moment but I am curious about this when you look at other markets, because Southern California to you've mentioned Dallas a couple of times, so I assume that's probably one of the places you're looking to the Carolinas and elsewhere very different markets, right? So what is the criteria that you're looking for as you look at it's a big country, right, as? What are some of the attributes of a market that you're paying attention to that kind of draw you in and say, okay, this is a place we should spend some time on underwriting?

Zihao Wang:

I would say it's two things right. The first is the market fundamentals right. How strong is the economy here, how diverse is the economy here, and is there like future growth potential right? I mentioned Dallas a few times. We've been looking at Dallas for the past six to eight months. We still haven't done anything there because I feel price is still a little bit inflated there, but I do like the fundamentals of that market For us. We also do a lot of VC investing as a family office, and the Frisco and North Dallas side of things have been growing like crazy in terms of venture investing as well.

Zihao Wang:

We're well aware of kind of the market fundamentals of Dallas and we believe in it long term.

Zihao Wang:

I just think in the short term there might be some correction that I'm still waiting for.

Zihao Wang:

But if you talk to me 20 years from now, I'll probably be like, yeah, it's grown like crazy.

Zihao Wang:

And then the second thing I would say that we look at is where we have an advantage in, and so for us that means okay, I want to have some kind of connection with that market, whether it be like okay, one of my best friends is operating in that market or a person that I highly trust is operating in that market, a person who maybe also a family office and we vibe really well, is operating in that market that we can partner together and stuff like that. So we're looking heavily into Dallas as well as the Carolinas. We have great family office connections based in New York who have operated in those areas. They love those areas and so from us, from our standpoint, is okay. We have to almost take a risk as to picking a market right, and you have to take a risk At least we want to take a risk with one of our buddies Right. So from that perspective we really look at, I think, just market fundamentals and just also where our connections are at.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, that makes a lot of sense because obviously your buddies at least have some experience in the market and can give you some insights that maybe someone who's coming in cold won't be able to give you right, so that makes a lot of sense. All right, sir. So let's get into the final five. I'm always interested in how leaders approach their weeks, and so I'm curious what gets you out of bed on Monday mornings. So if you could finish the sentence for me, tell me my purpose is what does that mean to you?

Zihao Wang:

I think for me it's growing the family's wealth. I've been very fortunate to have inherited from my family and given a huge responsibility but also a blessing to run the family office. I don't want to throw this blessing and fortune away, and I get up every day knowing that I of I want to create for my kids what my parents created for me, and so that gets me out of bed.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, it's a, yeah, it's. Running a family office like you adds another layer of, I would submit, and I would assume massive amount of responsibility, because your board of directors are the people you eat dinner with and celebrate holidays with. So it's a very different dynamic. If you're, it's a joyous time when things are going well, and they may be a little tense when they're not right If they don't. So that makes sense to me. So I'm always interested in in uh, how people work with them and discover their mentors and the information that, more importantly, the information that they've been given by those mentors. So I'm curious about the best advice you've ever gotten and who gave it to you.

Zihao Wang:

My first mentor was my mom. She gave me probably the most amount of advice and a lot of them were super, super good. So one time when I was younger, so I started on the property management side of the business and when I was younger she told me that I can never do enough due diligence when I bought an asset and I didn't really understand what that means. Right, because we have a due diligence checklist. Right, you read the leases, you look at the T12, you match it with the rent roll stuff like that.

Zihao Wang:

And then one time she brought me we were buying a property and she brought me to a kind of it's like a local shop next to the property. And then we started talking with that shop owner and asking like, oh, how's the area? What kind of people can get into, like your store, how's that property that we're about to buy? Or we would obviously didn't tell them we're about to buy it, but like, how's that property doing? How's the neighbor? It was probably the most helpful due diligence ever getting, getting those references much more useful of a time than just like reading leases and reading T12's.

Ed Mathews:

It's so true. It's amazing what you learn from the neighbors when you simply make friends and ask them a couple of simple questions around it what's it like to live in this neighborhood? And it's amazing what you'll hear. So I highly recommend that strategy. That's brilliant. Leaders, almost universally, are readers right, and so I would imagine that, given your academic background, as well as the level of responsibility you have, that you also are, you probably spend a lot of time taking in information, and so I'm curious what is that method? Are you an audible? Are you a physical person, a physical book person? Do you like YouTube conferences and also, more most importantly, who are you paying attention to these days?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, I love kind of conferences. For sure, it's just us, we're high level people you don't get to meet, and so I love reading their books. Instead, I love reading venture books like, for example, Zero to One, Peter Thiel, right, Elon Musk's like First Principles those kind of books. I feel our family and real estate arm of it is run like a venture right. We're not a huge team right. We're a team of 12 people that manages half a billion dollars of real estate. We don't aspire to be like the biggest team in the world, because that often means the most inefficient team.

Zihao Wang:

Also, we treat our day-to-day jobs as a venture right. We say, okay, this is the number of things we need to get done, this is the result we want and this is how we're going to get there, and we collaboratively work together as a team and move as fast as possible. I think that's why we've been successful in the past few years. It's also why we've also survived market downturns as well, and so, from that perspective, I love getting into the mentality of a venture capitalist or not really a venture capitalist, but maybe like a company founder, right, One person who's driving a lot of things, meshing with a lot of things. Move fast, break things right. That's like the venture culture.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and having come from that world myself, it's, those guys are a bunch of cowboys and you don't strike me as a cowboy. There is an aspect to it in terms of speed and urgency and the way you operate, but also there's a risk-taking, and it's one of the reasons why I personally value real estate as an asset, because, tried and true, back a thousand years ago ago, when I was one of those guys, you're looking for 10 daggers, right, you invest in 10 companies, you hope that one or two of them hit, and one of them hits really big and off you go. In real estate, you need pretty much every property to hit right, and so that part is very different. But you can also there's also a whole lot of the fact you can touch real estate as opposed to a software company or a service company. There's a whole lot of value you can add actively add to a real estate asset that you can't to a software asset, unless you're a programmer, right?

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, of course. Yeah, right on. So let me ask you professionally, I think we learn more from our mistakes than our successes. So I'm curious about a mistake you made professionally, and what was it and how did you recover from it?

Zihao Wang:

Yeah, I'll give you two mistakes that's both kind of related to the same event, which is COVID. The first mistake is I didn't think rates would rise as fast as they did. Obviously, being a younger person, I haven't seen five market cycles, seen one market cycle, and so because of that we did put two properties on floating rate debt when we shouldn't have in my opinion, and I'm very lucky in the sense that our family had liquidity and so what we ended up doing is paying those debt off and basically held the debt of all assets being clear . But that was a very scary time right, because I was at like 4% and it all of a sudden went to like 7% and was going to push 8% and I was in a little bit of a state of worry for those assets. Very fortunate that we have the liquidity we do.

Zihao Wang:

The second thing is for one of our ground up projects during COVID, supply chains were cut and a lot of our supplies right electrical panels specifically they were largely delayed. We didn't get them until eight months after we expected them to arrive and so from that point definitely delayed the progress of the project. I think what I did well in those was that I try to cut costs in other areas, for example cabinets, countertops, lighting fixtures, stuff like that I decided to go to instead of buying it locally here from a vendor. I don't buy it from Home Depot, but like still local, here I went direct to China. Essentially, yeah, I flew to China, went direct to China, and saved around 15 to 20% on each of those items that I went through, so from that perspective it definitely did save a lot of cost. But, yeah, I think those two are probably the biggest lessons I learned.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and unfortunately you flew right over those electrical panels you were waiting for, because they were all packed in the cargo ships waiting out in the Pacific waiting to land. Right, it was a crazy time, I'll tell you. I think that kind of resourcefulness getting back to your venture capital comments right, sometimes that's what it takes when it hits the fan, like it did with COVID. You can either accept what's happening and start figuring out ways that what can work, or you can curl up in a ball, and some of us curled up in a ball and you got on a plane. So kudos to you. So I'm also curious about success, right, that means different things to a whole bunch of people. So what does success mean to you? I?

Zihao Wang:

I think I want to grow the family's wealth more and more in my lifetime. I think my parents gave me a great foundation, a phenomenal foundation, but I want to try to build on top of that and that doesn't just mean real estate, it also means other asset classes. I think for Multiva Holdings it's just going to be real estate. In that aspect I want to diversify the different geographical locations, diversify into other asset classes, but for our family as a whole I want to diversify the different geographical locations, diversify into other asset classes, but for our family as a whole I want to diversify more into maybe more venture capital, more private equity, more of the kind of other asset classes, and really try to almost mimic the seventh generation family offices that I meet at conferences and stuff. So that really gets me motivated.

Ed Mathews:

Excellent, excellent, and so I'm always interested. You strike me as somebody that works a lot, but when you're not working, what do you like to do for fun?

Zihao Wang:

I love playing tennis and pickleball. I started tennis when I was like six years old, played all throughout middle school, high school and then as well as at MIT. I was a pretty decent player back when I was in high school. I wouldn't say so now anymore, but love sports. I'm a pretty active guy. It helps me be calm and clear my mind as well, but I also, like most of my friends, are there as well, so it's a great time to catch up and hang out.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, it's a whole lot of fun. I actually thought you had to be like 55 to play pickleball, or you weren't allowed.

Zihao Wang:

Like the pickleball police would come get you or something You're allowed to play when you're younger At least I think most people it's easier to pick up. So it's actually it's starting to become a bigger community, even for young guys.

Ed Mathews:

And see the reason it's fun, it's addicting, yeah, it's a blast, yeah, and it's something that many skills, anyone at any level of skill, can play, which is not necessarily the case in tennis. Tennis bubbles a little faster. So, zihao, I've really enjoyed this conversation. Congratulations again on the business that you're building, and if people want to learn more about you or your family office or anything else, what's the best way to get in touch?

Zihao Wang:

I'm very active on LinkedIn, so please connect there Also. You can visit my website to learn more about us at www. motivaholdings. com.

Ed Mathews:

All right, Zihao Wang.

Ed Mathews:

Thank you so much for your time today. It's truly a pleasure and honor to have you on the show. Thank you so much for joining us.

Zihao Wang:

Thank you so much for having me, Ed.

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