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What Banks Won't Tell You About Mortgage Notes with Nathan Turner

• Ed Mathews

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Ed Mathews:

Greetings and salutations. Real Estate Undergrounders. It is Ed Mathews with the Real Estate Underground. Thank you so much for joining us today. For those of you who have been listeners all along or have just discovered us, thank you If you could do me one favor, and that is to make sure you follow the show or subscribe, depending on the platform you listen to us on because it definitely helps us grow and reach more investors out there so that we can help them as well. So with that today, I'm joined by Nathan Turner. He is the owner and president of Earnest Investing. He also runs expo that I am absolutely fascinated and interested in, called the Diversified Mortgage Expo, and that's coming up first week of May, I believe May 2nd. Yeah, fantastic, and any excuse to visit Nashville. I am down. But before we get into that, Nathan, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for your time today.

Nathan Turner:

Oh pleasure. Thank you for having me.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah. So for those folks who aren't in the mortgage note world, why don't you tell us a little bit about your business, and maybe both about earnest and the diversified mortgage expo?

Nathan Turner:

Sure. So, like so many people, I got started in real estate doing actual real estate where I was flipping houses, and then I got one property that I couldn't sell so I ended up renting it out. So that was kind of my introduction to real estate and I'm super glossing it over. But to fast forward and I was introduced into this world of not buying properties. And I was introduced into this world of not buying properties but instead buying mortgages. So instead of buying the house, I'm just buying the mortgage which is attached to the house. The house is acting as collateral. So I moved from being the hands-on real estate investor to the lean investor where I'm just buying the lean attached to the property and I love it. I just think it's so much fun. It's got a lot more flexibility, it's a lot easier to deal with. I don't actually have to swing a hammer like ever.

Ed Mathews:

So that's nice no toilets to replace, no paint to spread right.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, so that's the very fast version. I got involved in that in 2009, started buying non-performing loans where people were not making payments in 2010. It was actually really fun. It's very dynamic, there's different things happening all the time, and so you're constantly problem solving, which was great, but it's a challenge at the same time.

Ed Mathews:

Without a doubt.

Nathan Turner:

So then we put together this fund and changed gears. We're now buying performing loans excuse me where people are making regular payments. They're just, they're far easier to manage, especially when I'm borrowing money from investors. Then I know I can manage loans excuse me where people are making regular payments. They're just, they're far easier to manage, especially when I'm borrowing money from investors. Then I know I can manage expectations a lot easier because I know what to expect. And then, a couple of years ago, I took over this conference. Diversified Mortgage Expo 2025 will be the 10th anniversary and the third year that I'm running it. Congrats, very excited for that. Can't wait to have that going on and it's going to be a good one, Fantastic.

Ed Mathews:

So let's talk about the expo first. Just quick. So who is your audience there? Who should attend?

Nathan Turner:

It's fascinating. Anytime you're doing any kind of marketing, you should really target in on who your market is. It's hard for us to do that because we get anything from people that are brand new to notes they heard about it once, literally. From people that are brand new to notes they heard about it once, literally. We had last year a guy from Utah. He had heard about it the week before and, oh, that sounds like an interesting thing. So he booked his ticket and off he came, and so we've got anywhere, from guys that have barely heard about this to guys that are running multimillion dollar funds and everybody in between, and so it's really an interesting dynamic.

Nathan Turner:

We do an informal show of hands who's brand new to notes, who's done a dozen deals, who's done 50 deals, who's done this for years and has a hundred plus loans under their belt and there's a pretty even spread across all those categories. So it's for anybody who's interested or involved in notes in any way. We're very heavy on the networking where people can just come together and learn and network, because that's how deals get done. It's very much a relationship business and that's a big deal in business.

Ed Mathews:

So let's talk about that a little bit and maybe move a little bit over towards the earnest investing piece. So when you're a note investor, can you walk me through the process of how you identify or find notes, how you acquire them, what you have to do to service them? Educate me on that, because I'm one of those newbies that actually may be at your conference raising their hand. I've never done this before.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, it's really cool. So how you find them?

Ed Mathews:

that's the best kept secret you, me and a handful of people that may be listening to my notes, but you won't care.

Nathan Turner:

It's really. It really is all about the networking. You're talking to different people. So I went to my very first note conference in 2009 and I'm the Canadian guy, so I was the Canadian note guy and that helped me to stick out, which was fantastic. That really helped a lot. And then it's really just about getting to know who the players are. Who's got what, because everybody who's in notes is either buying or selling or both, and so, as you get to know these people be like hey, you know what I'm interested in that. Would you mind sending me details on what you've got and let's see if we can make a deal.

Nathan Turner:

And it's very grassroots. There's really one there's maybe two websites out there where you can actually go and look for loans that are for sale. There's not like a regular MLS the one that's probably the most popular that I actually helped them my semi claim to fame where I helped them develop their program at the very beginning, which was tons of fun and really great guys. It's called paper stack Okay, so that's paper stack with no K on the endcom, and it's a great site where anybody who has a note that they want to sell can just list it and then, of course they get a fee anytime sale goes through, but other than that it's just very much a. If people want to look and browse and see what's available for sale, that's a great place to go. They're not all going to be great deals and that's where you're going to have to get some kind of education. You got to get to know what you're doing, because just because you've done real estate does not mean you can do now. It's not the same.

Ed Mathews:

I've done hundreds and hundreds of physical real estate deals and I don't know thing one about buying mortgages Although I do know that I have been bought and sold behind the scenes and the entity I was paying six months ago is not the entity I'm paying today.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, and that's exactly what it is. So that's somebody either a larger entity or somebody it could be even a smaller guy like me where they'll come in and buy the note. So, instead of now paying Bank A, now you're paying LLC me, and that can very well happen, and so I just step into the role as bank.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, so let's say I'm a mortgage broker and I focus on investors, right? So I'm a commercial lender and so I have a loan from Ed Mathews. It's say mathematic simplicity million dollars with a 10 year maturity. So why would you want to buy that?

Nathan Turner:

loan from me, so I want to buy it because I want the cashflow. That's really what it comes down to for me. At the bank, they're willing to sell it for the same reason, they would rather have a chunk of cash today instead of collecting those payments over time. I'm in the opposite camp right now. Today, instead of collecting those payments over time, I'm in the opposite camp right now where I would rather have those payments over time, and it both for the fund itself, where I can start collecting these and then pay investors, and then, of course, I get paid in the meantime as well. The whole goal of that whole operation is to fund my own portfolio, so I'm trying to build up my own retirement portfolio so that I've got enough notes that I'm personally responsible for, that I've bought myself that I can write off in the sunset and my wife and I can go and travel and do all those fun things as my kids are starting to get older and moving out of the house.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, fantastic. So on that million dollar note, you approach the bank and say, okay, hey, I want to buy Ed's note. How does that work? Or maybe they pick the phone up and call you and say, hey, we've got this. And I know you buy probably more than one, but let's just for educational purpose, let's just do the million dollar note.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, it mostly is whoever is holding the note and they want to sell it. That's typically how that goes. I knock on some doors and make some calls and say, hey, do you have anything you're looking to sell? But more often than not they're reaching out to whoever the buyer is going to be.

Nathan Turner:

Okay, and yeah, go ahead. Then there's all kinds of different shapes and sizes, so I concentrate on residential mortgages, so the types of loan that I buy. Typically, the balance is going to be under 250,000. So a commercial note for a million? Absolutely, those are out there and you can get those all day.

Ed Mathews:

What's your version? Let's do the 250 residential.

Nathan Turner:

Let's stick to your world so let's say then let's give a scenario so we've got a house worth $250,000. Let's say they did a $50,000 down payment. So now there's a note for $200,000. Whoever's holding that note, they call out to me and say, hey, we just want to cash out, we want to go and do something else with this money, and that's fine. What are you willing to pay for it? So I look at that.

Nathan Turner:

One of the very first things I'm looking at is what's the interest rate? Because I'm buying for a specific yield target. So if they lent that money out at three or four or 5%, my discount to get to where I want to be is going to be huge. So it's unlikely that sale is ever going to happen. Just because there's going to be such a big difference in what I'm willing to pay versus what they have for sale. And it makes sense because again, they're at whatever call it 5%. I want to be at 12% In order to get my 12%. That discount is going to be enormous, so it's probably not going to go anywhere.

Nathan Turner:

So right now I'm mostly looking for seller financed notes. So that's, somebody owned a property, they sold it on terms. They created a note, probably at more like eight or nine or 10%, that kind of an interest rate. That's a lot easier for me to get it to 12. My discount is going to be a lot smaller, much smaller haircut, and then we can probably start working on a deal. Two major factors are interest rate and time. How long is that term? Is it a 10 or a 12 or a 20 or a 30? And that those make a big difference.

Ed Mathews:

Sure Cause. Yeah, you're figuring yield over a span of time so you can be more flexible on a much longer term. No, exactly, Okay. So that $200,000 mortgage note, just give me a ballpark and it can be a range even. What would you potentially be? Let's say, at 10%, what would you be paying roughly and I know I'm putting you on the spot, but I'm actually very curious about the math here Rough order of magnitude, what would you be offering? Give me a range so I don't cause you any problems with your negotiation.

Nathan Turner:

Sure, yeah, and it's a great question and really what it comes down to. It's hard to ballpark it because I'm not a math genius. I don't know why they don't teach us in high school, and that's my little soapbox is why are we doing the scientific calculator? It makes no sense. Nobody ever uses that. Again, why not teach a financial calculator that everybody will use all the time? Anytime you get any loan for anything, which we all do, wouldn't it be nice to know what you're going to be paying for that loan over time? It's at the very least.

Ed Mathews:

So, anyhow, that's there's my answer, so I'm going to ask you a really dumb question then, and I appreciate the complexities of this, so I understand why you're not letting me get away with my initial question. But that's okay. But into the calculator we could come up with a number. You know, maybe we'll do a side video on that at some point.

Ed Mathews:

I do want to learn that. So the question is on that $200,000 balance, are you offering hypothetically $190,000 and the bank is taking that, or $210,000 and you're recouping your money back over the course of time? That's a good question.

Nathan Turner:

What's your thinking?

Nathan Turner:

there recouping your money back over the course of time, like, how does that? What's your thinking there? So it will be at some kind of a discount. So whether that's 190 or 160, it's somewhere in that range, and that's going to be again dependent on a few things. So again, what's that interest rate? How long is the term? The longer the term, the easier. The less of a discount that's going to be, sure, there's. Where is it located? Texas is very different than New Jersey, and so that that plays into it as well. And then what's the underlying value of the property? That's also a factor. So there's a lot of things that go into it. But let's just pretend, all things being equal, it's going to be some kind of a number that's going to get me to 12% yield, Okay. So that's really what I'm after.

Ed Mathews:

So then, that next question then is why would the bank loan out 200,000 and accept 160 to move off of that loan? What's in it for them? There's a few things.

Nathan Turner:

So banks in general, when they're selling their loans, typically they're selling large pools off to other banks, and so they might just be going par and they're just looking to recycle their capital. So they want to get their liquidity back and then they can go and lend it out to something else, and just that's the nature of it. They might have some fees in there or something like that, and that's how they can justify to their shareholders that, why they're doing this.

Ed Mathews:

So they're making their money on the origination fees and the other fees that they're selling off and then getting back to zero, basically, and then taking that capital and loaning it out to five other people.

Nathan Turner:

And that's assuming that all these loans are performing, where they are making payments. If you go back in time, 10, 15 years, where so many of these mortgages were not making payments, that's a different story. They were letting those go for 30 cents on the dollar because on their balance sheet if somebody's not making payment to them, it's actually worth zero. It doesn't matter what the balance is, it doesn't matter any of those things, it's actually worth zero. So they were willing to sell at steep discounts for a number of years where there were just there were thousands and thousands of them. Wow, so that's on the bank, performing non-performing. On the personal side, if somebody just owns a second property and they sell it on terms and create a note, they want cash today instead of cash over time. Sure, so for maybe they got another investment, maybe they want to renovate the kitchen, they want to send a kid to college, who knows Whatever.

Ed Mathews:

All kinds of reasons why would they rather have cash today? Okay, I know more about notes than I did when we first started talking.

Nathan Turner:

Thank you. There you go, all right.

Ed Mathews:

Hopefully everybody else has been taking notes too. So let's talk about the other end of it, the investor side. So, with regard to your investor clients, let's say I'm an accredited investor, right, and I'm looking to diversify out of multifamily because cashflow is pretty tight, pretty hard to find these days. What is your pitch to a guy like me who's looking for at least north of the prevailing inflation right? So four or five, 6% plus.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah. So a couple of things. Number one hopefully you've got some money set aside in your IRA because you're growing it tax-free. As a Canadian, I don't have one because I'm Canadian, but I can use other people's IRAs and help them get some really great returns. So that's the first thing, whether it's cash on hand or an IRA, but think about it. If it's an IRA, because you've got some really great opportunities there.

Nathan Turner:

What I say is this is your sleep at night money. We pay an 8% annual return, so it's not the highest thing out there a multifamily or something. In theory, it can pay a whole lot more. And there's a lot of investments that people go into where it's at least partially speculative, where we're going to make some money and there's going to be a payout five years from now or something like that. Do some of those things because you can get some fantastic returns. This, on the other hand, it's a lower return, but it is very secure, where everything we buy is secured by real estate. We buy at a minimum 25% equity spread. So if the house is worth 200, I'm not going to pay more than 150 for that because I want to make sure there's an equity spread in case of the whole world blows up again and everything drops and values drop and everything else.

Ed Mathews:

I'm still up 35%. You're still in the money. We're still okay.

Nathan Turner:

So that's why this is such a great investment at least part of what you've got that you want to invest.

Ed Mathews:

Got it Interesting. Okay, so definitely a retirement play, which is very intriguing to me being an older guy. Definitely a retirement play, which is very intriguing to me, being an older guy. Okay, so, as far as the fund itself, is this for accredited investors only, or can sophisticated investors get involved, or how do you operate from a Regulation D perspective?

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, we're Reg D 506C, so it's for accredited investors. Okay, and man, we debated a long time about that, if we wanted to do one or the other, or maybe even both. And at the end of the day, I'm starting to get older as well, and you know what. I'm trying to make my life simple, so we're trying to keep everything very simple, and I'm looking to ride off in the sunset, so I don't need to lose any more hair. I don't have much to discuss.

Ed Mathews:

So it's yeah, and I wholeheartedly agree. Right, keep it simple. I met this gentleman a couple of weeks ago. I shouldn't mention his name so I won't but the one thing I was like you have any advice for me? And he said, don't add steps. And I'm like, oh my God, that's fantastic. Yeah, I love that, cause I am one of those guys that I don't know, maybe it's I'm insecure about my intellect or something but I always try to make it more complex than it needs to be, and so I try really hard not to add steps and to have that. That's great. That's been my mantra for the last six weeks. Yeah, I wish I learned it 20 years ago. But Right, yeah, okay. So in terms of the, let's switch to the expo and then we're going to get into the lightning round. So, in terms of the expo, if you're interested in any way, shape or form about the notes industry or how to get into it or how it works, this is probably a really good event for you.

Nathan Turner:

It is. We've got somebody from Mortgage Bankers Association coming give us an update what they see coming down the pipe. This year is a very interesting year. We've got all kinds of announcements coming out of Washington that are making predictions very difficult, and so we're all trying to navigate that and to see where we're going, and it's making it very interesting. We're keeping a close eye and just watch and see what's going to happen, because who knows? So anyway, we've got people coming to talk about different kinds of notes and different ways that you can get involved. We've got a panel with the newer note investors. We're calling that one things I learned in my first two years and just getting their perspective. What are some of the things that they learned and what are the things that they didn't know to expect. I think that's going to be an interesting one. It's all on the website if people want to go check that out, but we're looking forward to it. It's going to be a lot of fun.

Ed Mathews:

Excellent. One other thing that I'm curious about before we move into the lightning round, so with non-performing notes, what are some of the strategies you use to get Ed Mathews, who is a couple months behind on his mortgage, for whatever reason? What do you do to get Ed back on track?

Nathan Turner:

First thing we do is just talk and say, okay, so, ed, what happened, where are you at and what's going on? It is incredibly common where somebody just lost a job and they just they're about to start their new job but they haven't gotten paid yet and so they're just trying to make ends meet. I totally get it. Look, we've all been there. I totally get that. We're not interested in almost in every case, I'm not interested in taking your house. I actually don't want it.

Nathan Turner:

It's more work, like once I own the property, then there's automatic liability that comes with that and work that I've got to put into it and more stuff for me to do. And I'm again, I'm trying to simplify, so I'm really motivated to help you stay there. So if that means we have to adjust your interest rate or stretch out the amortization to make your payments go down and we've done all of the above where we've raised interest rates, lowered, stretched out the amortization, shrunk it down, payments have gone up or down, whatever works we'll have a conversation and figure out what's going to be the best way to get you back on track and what does that look like? Now you've got these arrears, what do we do with the arrears? Do we add that back into the total? Do we forgive part of it? Do we make that payable for the next year to your higher payments for the next 12 months to pay off that arrears? We can do all kinds of stuff and we can just get creative and see what's going to work.

Nathan Turner:

So we're very motivated to get that done. Barring that if the house is vacant, we'll try to find the person, see if they are able to just sign the property over and do cash for keys where they'll sign the property over in exchange for wiping out the loan. Worst case scenario we do a foreclosure, which is really just a matter of time and money. I've never had it where the foreclosure hasn't gone through. 99% of the time when we foreclose it's on an empty property and we can't find the borrower. In that case we'll do the foreclosure because that's what's left to us.

Ed Mathews:

And I think what you're saying is really important, because being a note investor, especially with non-performing notes, doesn't mean you're in the business of making people homeless, right, in fact, just the opposite.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, no. And even you can run through the different scenarios and actually having somebody stay in their home and then start making payments again, even if that means I'm going to collect for a little bit and then resell that loan at some point. In almost every case that's actually the most financially beneficial exit strategy for me anyway. So I'm extra motivated to have that happen because not only does it feel good, but I'll actually make the most money if I do that.

Ed Mathews:

Because you converted a non-performing into a performing note, right, yeah, yeah, so fantastic, all right, good, all right, time for the lightning round. So the final five. Really, I'm trying to get into your head a little bit, okay, sure, I'm curious about what gets people up out of bed on Monday morning. So let's talk about purpose. What is your purpose?

Nathan Turner:

Purpose. I love business. I really like just the whole idea of business. I was actually talking to a group of grade nine kids this morning and talking about I was explaining macroeconomics. It's just fun for me. It's really interesting to see how it works and why it works and why we do what we do. So that's a big one. And then it's just my ultimate goal right now is, looking towards retirement, building up what I need for me and my wife to just go and do whatever visit kids, travel other places or not, or stay at home and lend out cash to somebody else, whatever. That's kind of the ultimate thing that we're looking forward to right now. Awesome.

Ed Mathews:

I'm always interested in learning about mentors and how they've affected your life, so I'm curious about the best advice you've ever gotten and who gave it to you.

Nathan Turner:

So you gave this one to me earlier and so I had a chance to think, so I had lots of really great advice. But one of the ones that sticks out to me earlier, and so I had a chance to think, so I had lots of really great advice, but one of the ones that sticks out to me was just, it was a life thing, it wasn't really a business thing, and it was.

Nathan Turner:

I was probably 17, 18 years old and I was doing a public speaking thing at church and so I was nervous and not exactly sure and whatever. And there was an older guy part of her congregation and it was after I was done and he was chatting with me. He said, hey, you did a great job, that was really good. Here's what you do you stand up, you take a deep breath, you let it out. If you want to close your eyes, you can do that and then you just go. And I was like I like that a lot, like that really just helped. And I've used that many times, like before I go up on stage, I'll just take a deep breath, let it out. Okay, now let's go and you just get to work.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and my I would add to that. I always find a friendly face somewhere in the audience or somebody that's smiling at you, and whenever you start to feel the beads of sweat forming on your brow, you go back to that person and take a breath and just keep going. So that's great advice, so I'm always interested in. I think you learn more from your mistakes than you do from your successes, so I wouldn't necessarily change it.

Nathan Turner:

However, that being said, early on, before I got into real estate, my wife and I opened a Curves franchise. We actually had two of them and it was great. The problem is it would wreck the rest of my life. So it's hard to go back and say this, but if we had listed those clubs for sale one year earlier, we would have cashed out and had just a big chunk of money. Instead. We wrote it until the great recession hit and, of course, when people are nervous about finances, they cancel a gym membership, yep. So we wrote it until we ended up carrying a huge amount of debt that we ended up having to pay off over years. And, like I say, that actually turned out to be a blessing in disguise, because that helped us figure out how to do that, how to overcome issues and problems and how to pay back these big sums of money that we're now owing because we didn't list early on in the process. But in the end, it turned out to be a good thing.

Ed Mathews:

Better to sell a year early than a year late. Yep, got it. How about how you sharpen your saw right? We're always looking to learn, and so I'm curious about the book on your nightstand virtual or physical, yeah, and who are the authors that you're paying attention to these days?

Nathan Turner:

Interestingly enough, I switch back and forth, so I've got two books on the go right now. The one on my nightstand is James and the Giant Peach by Roald Dahl, and it was because I got the whole set from Roald Dahl last Christmas and I still haven't gone through them all yet. So I'm reading through those. So I've done Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and the Great Glass Elevator and the Witches and all these fantastic books that I loved when I was a kid, and so that's one of them. The more kind of serious book that the nonfiction that I'm reading right now is called the Diabetic Code, and that's a recommendation by a friend of mine who's a doctor, and because I went to the doctor recently and he said that I'm almost pre-diabetic, I'm like what me, are you kidding? So I'm trying to learn a little bit more about that. How, trying to learn a little bit more about that? How do I make sure that I can live a nice long life?

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, that would be wonderful, Sugar bad. That's where it starts. Essentially, yeah, all right. And then, finally, I'm curious, either in your personal life or professional or both, how you define success.

Nathan Turner:

Hey, yeah, again. You know that, beginning with the curves, that was going downhill so fast and it was very hard to navigate. It's the old proverb you get knocked down, you get back up. It's just, you're getting knocked down and the ability and how quickly you get back up and get back to it. You can take a lump, and that's fine and it's going to hurt and you can even nurse it for a minute, but then get back up and get back to work, and to me that's what that is.

Ed Mathews:

Excellent, all right, nathan. So when you're not saving the world from mortgage notes, what do you like to do for fun?

Nathan Turner:

I live just outside of the Rocky Mountains in Canada, so I'm in the mountains as often as I can, whether that's hiking in the summer or snowboarding in the winter. That's my happy place. That's where I like to be.

Ed Mathews:

It's a nice place to be, yeah, and so if somebody wants to learn about the Diversified Mortgage Expo coming up again, it's coming up May 2nd and 3rd in Nashville, and if you haven't had the opportunity to walk Broadway, I highly recommend it because it's definitely worth a Thursday night prior to, and maybe even a Friday morning prior to, this event, and the event itself is going to be something I'm probably attending as a newbie. So if they want to learn about that, what's the best way to get involved or learn more about that expo?

Nathan Turner:

So the website diversifiedmortgageexpo. com is the place to go. Okay, so the tip is the Thursday night. Included with your ticket is we do an axe throwing tournament. So it's just a little bit off of Broadway but anybody who wants can come and either participate or just watch and be in that competition to be the axe throwing champion of the year, and it's all about networking. So we do that so that people can get together and have a good fun time together, meeting people, so that Friday morning when the conference starts, you already know how to price people. Beautiful, great, idea.

Ed Mathews:

And if someone's looking people, so that Friday morning when the conference starts, you already know how to price people. Beautiful, great idea. And if someone's looking to learn more about earnest investing.

Nathan Turner:

What's the best way to learn more about that? We're very creative on our names.

Ed Mathews:

That one's earnestinvesting. com. That's pretty much it. Keep it simple right.

Nathan Turner:

Yeah, so earnestinvesting. com. There's links on both those sites to each other, so if you want to go to one or the other, then all the links to the other one. That works too.

Ed Mathews:

All right. Nathan Turner, thank you so much for your time today. I am a lot smarter than I was when we first started this meeting. Thank you very much, and it's really good to see you.

Nathan Turner:

Good Thanks.

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