Real Estate Underground

Non-Correlated Investments: Protecting Your Wealth When Markets Crash with Patrick Grimes

• Ed Mathews • Season 4 • Episode 173

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Episode Resources:

  • Website: investwithpatrick.com
  • Book: passiveinvestingmastery.com/book

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Ed Mathews:

Greetings and salutations, Real Estate Undergrounders. It is Ed Mathews with Real Estate Underground. Thank you so much for joining us. I really appreciate you making us a small part of your day. With me today is Patrick Grimes from Passive Investing Mastery and a whole bunch of other things we're going to talk about. Patrick, welcome to the show and thank you for your time today.

Patrick Grimes:

Love the idea of the Real Estate Underground. I'm really excited to have this conversation because I felt like I was actually doing real estate underground for a while.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and one of the things that we're always really excited to talk about is multifamily rates, but not a lot of deals penciling and we're all looking at different asset classes. You focus on a handful that are really interesting. For those folks who haven't discovered you online yet, or elsewhere, why don't you tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do for a living?

Patrick Grimes:

Sure so Patrick Grimeson, the CEO and founder of Passive Investing Mastery. But just like probably most of your listeners, I was once a high paid professional in corporate America doing in my case it was machine design, automation and robotics and slamming away to build finances came from meager upbringings. I was wanting something more for my family and wanting nowhere to invest. My advice that I got early on from actually the founder of the machine design firm I work for, he said go invest in alternatives. My only regret was not investing more in real estate sooner, and that was pretty awesome because I thought he was going to say here's a high-tech stock or here's the startup that we have the insider in, because we're doing Gizmo or Gadget for them, which we were, and they were there and there was someone. But he gave me some wisdom to invest in.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah actually a really good. So I'm a former tech guy myself different world, I was a software and services guy, but yeah, actually a technology leader. A very close friend of mine gave me a rich dad, poor dad, and it opened my eyes and I'm like, wait a minute, you don't invest in other VC funds and tech? He goes. I do, but a lot of my assets are heading into real estate and you should consider it as well, and it fundamentally changed my life. So alternative assets are something I think it's a cheat code to break free from a W-2 job if you don't want that job. Yep. So tell us about your operation. You have a handful of funds and other things that you work on and you actually focus on a handful of really interesting alternative assets. So tell me more about that.

Patrick Grimes:

I learned early that you can't be all in one industry market, and I learned that through both being in high tech, in the stock sense driven stock market, through the booms and busts. I learned that also through real estate. I lost everything in 2009 and 10. Snot-nosed engineer out of college thought I could rule the world, like many people did back then. Market was never going to go down, heavily indexed into a pre-development, personally guaranteed a loan, and all of a sudden one day that flipped upside down. I was brutal, embarrassing, financially injuring, but I was successful.

Patrick Grimes:

So I learned early on that you can't just be in the stock market, you can't just be in on all in on real estate and you can't be in speculative. You need to be in on all in on real estate and you can't be in speculative. You need to be in recession resilient and what we call non-correlated investments, ones that don't have the same market fundamentals. That means it's not good enough to be in a bunch of different stocks in a stock portfolio with a financial planner on your IRA account, because those are all sentiment driven by the same market fundamentals. You can't just be in a lot of kinds of real estate, because those are all driven by cap rates and demand and similar market fundamentals that cause them to go on major swings together, and so you need to begin these kind of lesser known alternatives.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, so let's talk about those. You do litigation investment. You are also into some of the other favorite alternative investments, so let's talk about litigation first. I'm slightly familiar with it in that I've read about it, but I can't say I'm an expert in any way.

Patrick Grimes:

Yeah, anytime you're thinking to yourself hey, look, I want to be in this V real estate, which is just a steady state, is the legal industry? Or healthcare, education, things that don't rely on market fundamentals that are affected by swings? People still need reskilling and upskilling and downturns. They need healthcare and then in the legal industry, it turns out that people really need lawyers in really good times right, big boobs. Bad times, they get very litigious and they really need lawyers.

Patrick Grimes:

You look at our graphs on our website to look at the dollar, look at gold, look at oil and gas, look at real estate, look at the S&P just go on wild rides. And then things like legal, especially legal and healthcare they're just straight as an arrow. I'll come to the right. When you want to get exposure to an industry like that, because you want to be able to invest in something that builds resilience in your portfolio non-correlated allocation you're thinking more like hey, this is what the private equity, this is what the hedge funds, this is what the sovereign funds, people that are interested in returns over lifetimes, resilient returns and portfolio allocation how are you going to get access to that? So, within the legal industry and portfolio allocation, how are you going to get access to that.

Patrick Grimes:

So within the legal industry it's actually not that complex. It's not like the airline industry where there's a thousand parts, a million parts in a plane and there's all these different suppliers and all these different vendors. The legal industry it's representation. There's hourly rates, there's court fees, there's filing fees, there's expert witness fees, but it's just essentially people representing. And then you've got to figure out what are their needs.

Patrick Grimes:

And it turns out that there's a large part of the legal industry that works under contingency fee and that's not pro bono, because it's not that they're going at it saying, hey, mr, I see that you were harmed. These are attorneys saying, hey, look, there has been some harm done, usually on a mass scale, and there's a big bad Goliath out there. Some of those are sometimes a DOJ, like Camp Lejeune when they fed contaminated water at the Marine base for 17 years. And we've got a couple thousand of those people that were collateralizing in our fund helping attorneys support them, fund helping attorneys support them.

Patrick Grimes:

Or hundreds of farmers or landscapers that were affected by paraquat, a bunch of sexual assault victims, just when a case against the LA Juvenile Detention Center you can Google that billions of dollars horrible mistreated our young. I'm a Southern California guy, so before we get into Hawaii, and so you can invest in these attorneys and you can support their ability to bring on individuals that were harmed in a similar way to the cases they're working on. You can support their cost, the market and you can support their operating costs to get those cases to the finish line, to settlement, and then you can participate in the proceeds of the settlement that comes back from those. So who creates?

Ed Mathews:

that marketplace.

Patrick Grimes:

You know what it's like. Who created the real estate debt marketplace? Because we have a real estate debt fund and operators in the real estate industry. They come to us and they say look, I either want to buy a property or I want to improve a property. Can I get capital to acquire or capex to improve a building so that I can provide housing to tenants? These attorneys are saying where is it created? I guess fundamentally it's created by a bunch of evil. That's happened.

Patrick Grimes:

Third-party litigation finance started in America in 1910. That was the big Hallmark case when all these people were walking around smoking cigarettes and then they realized I think American tobacco, they might be lying to us. I don't think these are actually healthy because we're all dying from every illnesses. And that was a big hallmark case and they went against American tobacco. So maybe that's where it's created.

Patrick Grimes:

But when you have thousands or tens of thousands of people going against a big bad Goliath, then these attorneys are saying, look, this is a really good case. They run it on their own diamond nickel to get it into the courts and get the expert witnesses and the testimony out there, and they're nearing settlement. They're nearing the finish line. They're like look, hey, patrick and Dave, my partner. If we just had another million or $5 million, we could find another thousand or 5,000 people that were similarly harmed. It would make this even more dangerous. It would try and get us across the finish line. Or we need to save another million or 5 million to get this to settlement. And here are the terms right. And so it's really his attorneys saying look, we need to find some kind of investor that will help us provide this access to justice for those that otherwise wouldn't be able to afford it.

Ed Mathews:

Yep, so are you taking a piece like almost an equity stake in the attorney's fees that they're? I would imagine that if they, when they win or they settle that they're taking 20, 30, 40, whatever percent of the overall judgment and then do you take a percentage of that or is it more? You had mentioned a debt fund earlier, and so I'm curious is it more of a debt relationship or a mix of both, or something else?

Patrick Grimes:

A little bit of a hybrid. Every kind of litigation finance company is different. I don't think any are the same and just like in real estate, it's like saying, oh, you're in real estate, then there's a million ways to support attorneys in this process and there's people doing really speculative things early on. I don't do that. People doing very late staged, near the finish line, that's more ush. People doing class action or big commercial fights, which is big company. I guess company weren't doing that Late stage where there's thousands of individual harm claimants, gets one Goliath Not class action but mass tort or single event where it's sexual assault claims and stuff.

Patrick Grimes:

In that particular case those attorneys are saying, hey, look, here's the value of our assets.

Patrick Grimes:

And just like in real estate, where you can get an appraiser to value your apartment buildings, you can get a law firm valuation specialist to evaluate a law firm's docket of clients, confirm their clients' medical records, confirm their exposure and put a value or evaluate to see if it's all there and then we can say okay on that value. Just like in real estate, we can do a loan to value and sometimes we'll call it a loan, sometimes we'll call it a prepaid forward contract. That's better because it comes back as capital gains and then you can put a lien against it, just like how we have a deed but you put a financing agreement and, unlike in real estate, how it's just principal and interest, it tends to be that there is a waterfall approach with these attorneys Got it, the attorneys, their fees, usually, as you said, 20, 30, 40%, and then, before they get anything, we tend to get made whole plus some and then, as the case outperforms, we have a waterfall coming back to us based on the proceeds Gotcha.

Ed Mathews:

And this is a longer term play right. I know you're getting in late stage, but my experience with some of this litigation is that some of it is paid over time, Some of it actually gets appealed and there's no money exchanged until the appellate process plays out. How does that work in this scenario?

Patrick Grimes:

Yeah, again, every company is different in how they're approaching it, and especially the ones that are large, big commercial company after commercial company, those can get appealed forever. We tend to be ones that in cases where they've been baking, like in the case of Camp Lejeune, that harm was done for 15 years, it's been going on for five years in the courts and there was already a law passed providing a settlement, grant, saying, based on your condition, here's what, and your time exposed, here's your settlement. And so that's very different, right, because it's super easy to underwrite the value. Or, in the case of Roundup, they've already been lots of settlements On a case of sexual assault. There's case law to show what those settlements are worth. Right, we tend to be engaging Once it's through the courts.

Patrick Grimes:

They've done their discovery, they found some kind of misconduct or coverup, they'll move by the defendant. They're already negotiating settlements or there's already a case law to suggest, so we can underwrite it. So we're at a point where, yeah, probably been going on at least seven years, in some cases maybe 10. But we're jumping on the bus towards the finish line and that doesn't mean we're getting 10x returns, and that doesn't mean we're getting 10x returns. Now, if you jump on the bus really early for an angel round or a venture round for a company, you get 100x returns. You jump on with an oil and gas investor early on you can get 100x or lose it. Our game is really just before settlement. How can we engage so that we're in maybe two years, three years out on the outside, four and five through a diversified fund? Settlements over a five-year period is our target and mostly middle loaded, where the back end is just a few things squeaking through, and that's really where we intend to try and get on the bus.

Ed Mathews:

Okay, great. And who is your typical investor? You mentioned sovereign funds and institutional players. Are they your clients as well? Are you operating in parallel and it's more guys like Ed who's looking to get out of? I'm an accredited investor and I'm looking to get out of a portion of my portfolio and looking to exchange either 1031 exchange in, if that's possible, which I want to talk about, or take the tax hit and move it over to this type of asset class just to diversify my own portfolio. So I'm curious who is the person who's picking up the phone and calling you typically and I know it depends, but I'm just curious.

Patrick Grimes:

That's a really good question, because what was it? Four or five years ago I was talking to my partner, david Guzman, amongst others hey, I wanna get exposure to litigation finance, I wanna get into legal funding, I wanna invest in the legal industry, and the check sizes they were looking for were minimum 20 million. Dennis Shapiro wrote the Alternative Investing Almanac. Me and him were in conversations at one point trying to get a legal fund together, and we couldn't find attorneys that would play at our level in the millions, and so it tends to be a very well-known asset class at the institutional level. The private equity level coveted for its non-correlation and what we call inefficiency, meaning outsized returns for lower risk. It's an inefficient market, but there was nothing open to accredited investors we could find. And so when my now partner, dave, hung up his hat in private equity and moved from New York to California and said, hey, patrick, let's do it, let's set up an accredited investor fund, there's a niche part of this where there are some attorneys that only want 10 million minimums to 50 million minimums, but then there's a market for these attorneys that are overlooked, that can do 500, 1 million, 2 million check sizes. Let's go after that. By the way.

Patrick Grimes:

I've been in the industry 15 years, I know these guys. Let's open it up to accredited investors, which is what I've been asking for. I've been working at, I've been trying to get my way in for a long time, and so this is the first one we know of that allows for access to these kinds of institutions, or our specific late-staged combination of single event and mass tort exposure and returns. We're the only one we know of that. Just be yourself, ed, a hundred thousand minimum investor, kind of nervous right now.

Patrick Grimes:

They call us typically hey look, man, I'm in the stock market. We just got done with the Fed rate hike 11 out of less. We also have a trade war going on that could cause a bust, but we also have two proxy wars and we just bombed Iran Well, and are debts spiraling out of control, with the world's biggest economies, the BRICS nations, betting against the dollar? The engineer in me is saying basically, it always makes sense to diversify into recession-resilient, non-correlated investments. Two years ago was the best time, today is the next best time, and so those are the people that are calling. I just want to add a little slice of the pie, something else.

Ed Mathews:

And you're not pushing all your chips to the center of the table. Can I peel off a few percentage points and get exposure to this opportunity, among others that are non-multifamily or whatever asset class you're focused on? Yeah, no, it makes a lot of sense to me. So, in terms of your thinking in the market when you're looking at these types of deals you fund, obviously what you said really resonated with me. A lot of this is much like real estate is relationship driven. You've got probably a cadre of attorneys and firms that you work with over time, and their practices tend to focus on types of litigation that align well with the types of cases that you're willing to fund as well. I'm curious about that whole process from a marketing perspective. Is this simply relationship-based or are you looking to grow that sphere of influence in terms of the attorneys that you work with? Are you in growth mode? Where are you in terms of your maturation cycle?

Patrick Grimes:

Yeah, when Dave and I set up shop, we kept a lot of our own money in the fund and started building up what we setting up shop as a kind of a small balance legal funder Exactly and that really picked up steam. And now we're to the point where we have huge demand beyond the capital that we have raised, which is good, and so now we get to really open up our sales and start to see some great growth. There are sequential funds, though you know 100 investors per fund is how we do it. I made it on the filings, which is good, because then you can get on the bus and you'll start seeing returns back and we'll close that one down sooner.

Patrick Grimes:

Well, my partner, david. He started back when I lost everything in 2009 and 10. He was actually with the agencies and he was fighting the whole street for fraud and he spent, through the subprime mortgage collapse, about three quarters of a billion dollars, collecting 20 billion dollars for the benefit of the taxpayer in litigation funding, literally going against the fraud that happened, basically against the entire street of lenders at that time, and so his experience in litigation finance started then and since then he's made it a core focus of his. So through that process he made a lot of relationships and it's not dissimilar for real estate.

Patrick Grimes:

It's a relationship, especially the good deals and the people you want to work with, that you have a long trust with and it's the same in our debt fund my partner Lance 15 years in debt. We've both had our trials and tribulations through the subprimaries collapse and virtually almost everything we've originated has been through a relationship in that fund as well. So I think it's the best way.

Ed Mathews:

Couldn't agree more because it it pre-vetted and you know what you're getting into because there's a working relationship there. You don't have to go through a rigorous underwriting process, but there are a couple of boxes checked already when you go into that process. If you and I have been doing this for a period of time and there's a level of understanding and comfort and expectations and all that, I agree. Okay. So I would like to get into the final five, if that's okay with you. Yeah, no problem, and so it is.

Ed Mathews:

I'm always interested in how leaders like yourself, how they think, how they approach their days, their weeks, their business and other things. So let's start with Monday mornings. Obviously, you've done very well. You and I are having a conversation. I'm in Connecticut, you're in Hawaii. Connecticut's nice, but Hawaii's nicer. So hats off to you. And when you reach a certain level in terms of your net worth and career development and all that, the mortgages are paid, the kids are cared of, the families are taken care of. Nevertheless, you get out of bed on Monday morning and you go to work, and so I'm curious. I look at that as purpose, right, and so I'm curious in terms of what gets you out of bed on Monday morning. What's your?

Patrick Grimes:

purpose. So, first of all, every morning I wake up and I go on a run or I'll go to the gym, and I'm always listening to some kind of audio book, ted talk, educational series or something that's like my meditative start of the day. So I'm up usually before the sun rises and I'm running along the beach here, but immediately after that, on Monday mornings, I get to spend it with my two and a half year old. Once he wakes up, I get him in the mornings, which is a key part of my day. Specifically on Mondays, I get him for an hour or two and then my wife joins us and we get to go to his keiki, which is kids keiki kicks, which is his soccer league that he's in, and I love it. It's just a lot of fun. Sometimes he gets a little nervous and I got to hold his hand running around the field, but that's the way to start your Monday right. That's how it happens. That's how it happens.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, that would get me out of bed, no problem at all. I tell people who have little kids so mine, my girls are 22 and eight going on 18. So I've already had that experience of the toddlers. It's the best thing you'll ever do and I'm so happy for you that you get to do it. I'm always interested in mentorship and we don't get where we've gotten without help and I fundamentally believe that A lot of that help is just advice, right, but somebody who takes a liking to you and throws an arm around you and says, hey, look, you really need to be thinking about this and this, or asking that real poignant question, that kind of stops you and makes you think about am I going down the right path? So I'm curious, in your experience, what's the best advice you ever got and who gave it to you? So I'm curious in your experience, what's the best advice you ever got and who gave it to you?

Patrick Grimes:

There's probably 20 different things I can say over time from my grad school teachers, master's in engineering and business, but I would probably go back to what really triggered me into Alts.

Patrick Grimes:

Because that co-founder that machine design firm that I worked for, I was smart, I was doing well, I was working, I was growing quick, and he put his arm around me, essentially proverbially, and said look, don't put everything in high tech. If you want the future for your financial future, for yourself and your family, make your high money in high tech and dump it in an alternative. And that was such a cool thing because I at that time and for the next 10, 15 years that I was still working at places like Facebook and Google and Lockheed and Raytheon and Tesla and doing really cool stuff like ablation catheters and heart valves and the rotating part of Tesla's motor and Lockheed solar satellite. I was working with some of the smartest people in the world and why I have my platform now is to educate them on the fact that we all knew the 50 stocks. Nobody knew the 50 alternatives that you can invest in, and I would have never had that kind of awakening not a moment to even approach that space had that advice not been given to me.

Ed Mathews:

And at a young age too. So that's wonderful. I fundamentally believe that we learn more from our mistakes than we do from our successes, and so I'm curious about a professional mistake or maybe even just a decision that you made in the past that you look back and you go man, I would love to have that decision back. So I'm curious about a particular decision that kind of sticks out that you look back at and think I would love to redo that. And how did you recover? How did you move forward after that?

Patrick Grimes:

So early on I was on top of the world. I mean, I went through school, did well, won competitions in design, got a really good machine design job. Right out of college I figured, man, I can do anything. I didn't seek out the right kind of partners early. I didn't seek out, do anything. I didn't seek out the right kind of partners early. I didn't seek out ones that had enough immersive in their space for enough cycles and unfortunately that led to a couple failures. I was going to do it all myself and not use help. I did not partner up.

Patrick Grimes:

I lost everything in 2009 and 10, right. And then the second time I did it. I was in single family and I was doing well. I got my master's in engineering, mba and I found my way back to recession. Resilient investments, houston based. I was in California, buying in Houston and I was doing really well. But I got caught in that guru DIY trap. This time it was a DIY trap meant I was just trading my time away from my family, friends and hobbies because I wasn't learning how to partner, I wasn't building something to scale, and so, while I was very successful, I didn't lose all my money, but I lost my life that time, and it wasn't until I took a break, married my wife and said I'm not going to go do that. I'm going to learn how to partner that I. I actually found a balance, an ability to scale.

Ed Mathews:

And I'll tell you, time freedom, as you experience every Monday morning when you go off with your two-year-old and give your wife a break to do whatever she's doing in that time that is what I've learned is probably one of, if not the most valuable thing you get from starting a business like the ones that you and I run. It's a gift, there's no other way to describe it. Agreed business like the ones that you and I run it's a gift, there's no other way to describe it Agreed. So I'm also curious. I think I saw you with your phone and Audible, and so I'm curious about you know that book that you're focused on, if there is one, and I'm also curious about who you're paying attention to these days, yeah.

Patrick Grimes:

So when you said hey, like I'm gonna ask you about your favorite book, I was scrolling through like the yeah, I've been an Audible subscriber since college, when it wasn't Amazon back when it was old school Audible, and I'm just looking for hundreds of books and I'm rereading books.

Patrick Grimes:

I think that sort of. One of the coolest books that was recommended to me recently was why we Sleep, and it's a very humbling book because it changed just about everything. Your success, your happiness, how healthy you are, how long you live are all directly correlated to one thing that's entirely near control and that's sleep. And I just it's been very humbling, right, because that's the one thing that I had chosen to sacrifice many times throughout my life and to the extent where I just got a whoop watch. And this whoop watch it's not a a watch, it's a whoop band, but it has a immense amount of health tracking, raids my sleeps and a bunch of categories, shows the cycles, tells me my recovery strain, and it has allowed me to really respect sleep and build health, and it actually gives you an age that you're aging at to really come to grips with how healthy I'm being, and I think that those two things changed my life over the last year, fascinating why we and the whoop W-H-O-O-P band yeah.

Ed Mathews:

That I've heard of the book. I hadn't that just made my audible list as well.

Patrick Grimes:

Your mind's going to be blown.

Ed Mathews:

I guarantee it. I'm curious, though, because it changes my experience in interviewing lots of leaders, both from the real estate space, other assets like you and my relationships in the tech world. Success changes the definition as you progress through that journey. I'm curious sitting where you sit today, how are you defining success in your life?

Patrick Grimes:

And our mission and our company all comes down to, so that you have the time with your friends, family and hobbies and for the causes you care about most in this world. The resources isn't just financial right, it's your energy and your time. And so I really think that when I pivoted from the W-2 to a contractor which allowed me to spend more time with my wife, allowed me to partner up and scale after we got married, that was a big pivot. And then when I left that contracting role for full-time investments and I was more in control over my time and location, then when my wife came out and said, hey, I don't like Bird Bank anymore, she just featured LinkedIn, animated films there and that Glendale's Disney and DreamWorks and why don't we move to Hawaii? We were remote, so I was able to just flip the switch and go to Hawaii. We were remote, so I was able to just flip the switch and go.

Patrick Grimes:

And I think that the ability to set my life up for time and location freedom created happiness, even without immense financial freedom. It created time and resources. And then financial freedom, of course, to finance is an important part and, as I've realized before, if you don't do that right, maybe you have independence, but if it's in one market and one industry, it'll collapse. So we talk more about financial security across allocations of the non-correlated alternatives that allow for more resilience, because I've seen it disappear. I've seen it. That's what we talk about.

Ed Mathews:

Yeah, and it's interesting. You talk about time freedom and I'm going back to being a dad and you only get 18 summers with them. I can tell you, because I'm experiencing it literally as we speak, at about 18, 19 years old they still love you, but they don't want to hang out with you. They want to go hang out with their friends and explore the world and eventually go off to college and become a young adult and a full-blown adult. You look back like I look back on my kids in the time that we've spent together. I've been full time since 2018.

Ed Mathews:

So all of their adolescence and teenage years, I was around and I wouldn't trade that for anything. Nothing could ever make me trade that, and I'm happy. That is your experience as well. You started way earlier than I did, so hats off to you on that. Happy, that is your experience as well. You started way earlier than I did, so hats off to you on that. So, patrick, you've built a tremendous set of businesses and I'm really happy for you Congratulations. But I'm curious when you're not talking about this stuff, right, asset classes and real estate and all the other things that we've been talking about, what do you like to do for-?

Patrick Grimes:

Yeah, but when Kelly makes you stronger. So I and I've actually wanted to talk about this for a while because I actually I'm an adventure enthusiast. I've traveled through. He was almost 30 countries, the base camp of everest whitewater. After the grand canyon, fuji shasta, it's mount cyanide, three sacred mountains in china. 14 years in colorado, been on the john mirir Trail for 24 days. I'm like an outdoorsy nut and here on the island I'm picking up kites. It's challenging. I'm really good at the board. It's tough to do at the same time. I've been doing some spearfishing here and there, but daily I'm out in nature, I'm running and love swimming and do some surfing. There's about 500 surfers right here on the surfing, one wave and all at the same time at Waikiki Beach. So that's a little batted sometimes, but I love getting out there and I love just being with nature and I was raised that way. I grew up near Yosemite National Park and I went to Yosemite High School and I was sailing and skiing, water, snowboarding it was all that stuff.

Ed Mathews:

Awesome. So if people want to learn more about you or your business, what's the best way to get in touch?

Patrick Grimes:

A lot of people are listening to this. They can look. I would love to learn about what investments I can carve out a slice of the pie of my wealth and how do you get non-correlated things and build security, true diversity. And I have this investwithpatrick. com as a PDF that lists my favorite alternatives, because people are always asking me. I host a series on the Passive Investing Mastery series, talking about alternatives, which you can go to our website. But that download provides that and you can just read the list or you can go further back and read about the ones you're interested in. So investwithpatrick. com is one. I also have a book that I'd love to offer. You guys want to go to passiveinvestingmastery. com. It's all spelled out passiveinvestingmastery. com/ book and it's lessons from thought leaders.

Patrick Grimes:

I tell my whole story about losing it all and getting a high-tech master's and doing single family and losing my time and then learning how to trade up to larger, diverse, non-correlated alternatives. But there's some other people in here too. I did my own. It was a bestseller, but there's, like Phil Collins, lead guitarist at Def Leppard, fascinating. There's Brian Tracy, dennis Waitley, tom Ziegler Some really fascinating people.

Patrick Grimes:

This is a really fun book Lessons from Thought Leaders. But if you don't put the name of this podcast in the form, we're not going to send you a copy, but you can download a PDF or you can. As long as you put the name of this podcast in the form so we know where you came from and not a random, we'll sign it and send it out to you. But we also have on our website to really set up a call. So, regardless of where you're at and your investing journey, part of what I love to do is just chat with investors and jump on a call and maybe we'll get you pointed at some alternatives that fit your, whether it's with our offerings or not. We have about 50 we've dove into in our alternative investing mastery series which you can register for and we'll get you pointed in the right direction.

Ed Mathews:

Awesome. Patrick Grimes, thank you so much for spending some time with us, especially from paradise. I wish you continued success and once again, thank you for your time today,

Patrick Grimes:

glad to be here.

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